Who’s the data? Implications of thoughts-are-thinkers continuum for developmental bioelectricity

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One of the brainstorming tools I like to use is to take two things that are thought to be categorically different and to imagine them as a continuum. What kind of symmetry knob could be rotated gradually to turn one into the other? The ide is to purposely explore the consequences of “category errors” and question the assumption that the categories we had were the right ones to keep pure. I recently wrote about doing that to the distinction between thoughts and thinkers. Here are some ideas that come from the second part of that brainstorming strategy: seeing what implications a new perspective like that has for one’s research.

The basic idea was to recognize that typical cognitive systems (thinkers), like us, are really temporary disspative patterns within metabolic and other media. We exist for a time, while spawning off other patterns within the excitable, cognitive medium of our brain and body – i.e., thoughts, which have different degrees of solidity (fleeting thoughts, persistent thoughts, personality fragments or alters, and full on human persons). Much as we recently explored how active data might behave within a problem space (e.g., give agency to the elements of an array to be sorted, instead of a top-down boss that moves the data around), one can try to device a kind of “chemistry” for ideas or thoughts within a cognitive system that have their own dynamics. If thoughts can be (to some degree) active thinkers, one can then ask what other patterns exist which we may want to try the agential lens – to benefit from their intelligence and partial autonomy. A technical paper on this issue with Chris Fields is here.

One very interesting and important set of patterns is developmental bioelectricity: dynamic but slowly-changing spatial patterns of cellular voltage potential present in tissue. We now know many contexts in which these bioelectric patterns guide growth and form – they determine the location, size, and shape of organ-level structures in complex bodies, and are powerful targets for biomedical intervention in birth defects, cancer, and regenerative medicine. I have long suggested that, because of their evolutionary common origin and the conservation of mechanisms and algorithms between them, neural bioelectricity in the brain and developmental bioelectricity in the body can be studied in parallel ways. In other words, neuroscience isn’t really about neurons per se, but more broadly about the ways in which excitable cellular networks generate, store, and process information into adaptive behavior and a rich inner perspective.

Here are some diagrams (made by Jeremy Guay of Peregrine Creative) that I use in my talks, to get across the idea of an invariance (symmetry) between the construction of the body and the construction of the mind. They emphasize two main features that the self-construction of the mind and the self-construction of the body have in common: 1) common architectures and molecular mechanisms involving genetically-specified hardware and electrophysiological software, and 2) that by swapping control of spatial events (morphogenesis) for that of temporal events (cognition), and changing the time scale from hours to milliseconds, one can see the origin of the nervous system and conventional cognition from earlier roles of managing body anatomy. Somatic and neural bioelectric networks are basically doing the same thing: intelligently navigating a problem space (anatomical morphospace vs. familiar 3D space).

My group’s work has led to a number of discoveries from this basic realization. And much as neuroscientists record, map, and interpret brain bioelectric signals for the goal of “neural decoding”, we developed tools to read and interpret the more slowly-changing bioelectric patterns that direct development and regeneration. Here is an example of “the electric face” pattern, which presages and sets the location of the eyes, mouth, and other structures, produced by Dany S. Adams using voltage-sensitive fluorescent dye imaging of early frog craniofacial development:

Part of this neuroscience-inspired framework of understanding developmental bioelectricity as the decision-making, computational medium of morphogenetic change is the proposal that patterns like this are snapshots of the memories of the collective morphogenetic intelligence of cell groups – the proto-cognitive patterns guiding the subsequent behavior of the tissue to achieve specific outcomes in anatomical morphospace. Not in some highly metaphorical way, but literally, because they use the same molecular mechanisms (ion channels, electrical synapses) and perform many of the same functions. This has worked well for us, and led to many new experiments using the tools of neuroscience to manipulate the somatic intelligence for applications in birth defects, regeneration, and cancer.

So, what if we put two ideas – (1) patterns as agents, and (2) bioelectric patterns in living tissue – together in a new way. What if all these years, we’ve been missing an important perspective? We’ve been assuming that the body is the agent (thinker) and the bioelectric patterns were its morphological thoughts being processed (specifically, information it uses to navigate the space of possible anatomies during development, regeneration, and cancer suppression). Let’s try it a different way and turn the machine/data distinction up-side-down: what if, it’s the bioelectric patterns that are the agent, and the slowly-changing physical body is its its “memory tape”? In other words, the bioelectric pattern-driven changes we see in the cellular material (gene expression, morphogenesis, etc.) are the evidence of the agent reading and writing information into the physical world. On this view, the bioelectric states are themselves the agent (just somewhat in more subtle embodiment than the metabolic patterns embodied in arrangements of biochemical states – the conventional body), and the the body is its long-term medium or scratchpad, changing over time as the morphogenetic agent is doing the perturbative reads and writes to this scratchpad. All of the changes we observe downstream to modulating the bioelectric patterns (changes in second messenger cascades, gene expression, chromatin state, etc.) are evidence of the memory medium being accessed. As crazy as this sounds, it should be noted that a number of workers have shown evidence for the biochemical components of cells being a memory medium.

On this view, the body becomes not the ultimate target of our interventions (via the bioelectric interface) but instead, the tractable interface to what we’re really talking to, the bioelectric pattern (I guess psychiatrists would agree with this). This represents an interesting flip of perspective and likely has practical implications. We are working those out now, in the context of morphogenesis experiments in tadpole and flatworm models.

Part of that is developing better frameworks for two concepts. The first is how to think about physical laws of the universe holding patterns (a facet of the perennial “where is the pattern encoded?” question). For example, consider the significant transformation and rebuilding of the body and brain in the case of metamorphosis:

We often ask, so where is the memory stored during this process and how does it survive? Now, think about this example from the cellular automaton known as Conway’s Game of Life (GoL). In this simplified world, there is no physical glider, but it is a persistent pattern because the laws of physics (how each cell turns on/off) ensure its propagation as it moves. It has 4 life stages (morphotypes), not 2 like the caterpillar/butterfly, but nevertheless, its life cycle has the same kind of metamorphosis:

But cells in traditional GoL aren’t very smart – they only make on/off decisions based on their local neighborhood and store no representations of larger patterns. Where is the information for the persistent glider’s body which regenerates itself as it moves, every few ticks of the clock? We don’t have a great vocabulary for this yet, but it’s basically in the physics of its universe. This is a minimal model for helping us to think about how the glider pattern is using the world as its scratch-pad to maintain a consistent trajectory in morphogenetic space during its metamorphosis. This may help us think about how to design biomedical interventions for how to communicate new goals (healthy states) to the bioelectric agent, using the physical medium as the interface. Randy Beer has used this minimal model to help think about perspective-focused basal cognition.

So, is one view more right than the other? Well, when signals travel across the brain, we don’t tend to call it a memory just because they persisted long enough to get where they are going. Why not? Perhaps because the timescale of the real memory is supposed to be slower than the timescale of signals within the thinker. If the memory medium is supposed to be slower than dynamics in the agent’s processor, then the 2nd formulation above is more correct, because changes of the biochemistry and cellular structure within the body is slow while the bioelectrics are relatively faster.

Which of the two perspectives is correct – is the body the memory scratchpad of the bioelectric pattern agent, or is the bioelectric pattern the memory of the physical body agent – can we develop interventions better if we treat the body as the tape? What does that let us do?  This is work in progress. But I suspect we’ll have to lean in to our polycomputing framework and realize that there is no one real answer – both perspectives have utility. In fact, it may well be that the most accurate model is that both exist at once: the body agent is using the bioelectric patterns as its memory, and simultaneously, these agential memories are doing their thing while using the physical body st their memory scratchpad. Maybe the robust problem-solving of morphogenesis is implemented by the perpetual cycle of conversation and interaction between the body-as-memory and body-as-agent. Each one models, sees, and exploits the other in whatever way it can – that’s the basis of polycomputing.

Maybe what we’re looking at in morphogenesis is a 2-way relationship: the bioelectric agent is smart and is using the body as its tape, but the body is smart too and it’s using the bioelectric patterns as its memory.  It would be neat to make some simulations/models in which 2 creatures are simultaneously using each other as the lower-agency scratchpad? Is that what our brain is doing when it’s using capable neurons as a scratchpad? Are they using the “brain” at the same time – for example, to provide for them etc.? If you’re a coder interested in such things, this makes for a good ALIFE project, get in touch with me. At some point we’ll implement it ourselves in the lab and explore the implications.

But this view makes specific predictions already; for example, that aging could involve degradation of the ability to implement specific bioelectric patterns, not just the degradation of them (which we proposed here). This makes a prediction – older cells should have more trouble following bioelectric cues; that is actually observed in our recent preprint (see Figure 4). There are some very interesting experiments planned in the future, based on the inversions and blurring of the machine/data thought/thinker distinctions and testing the implications for developing new interventions in regenerative medicine.


Schematics courtesy of Jeremy Guay of Peregrine Creative.

36 responses to “Who’s the data? Implications of thoughts-are-thinkers continuum for developmental bioelectricity”

  1. Greta Lockwood Avatar
    Greta Lockwood

    Yes!

    I find it compelling to view bioelectric patterns as constructs of consciousness rather than just emergent, autonomous agents within the body. From this perspective, these patterns aren’t merely guiding development or healing but are active expressions of a deeper, perhaps universal, consciousness. This could mean that the bioelectric ‘decisions’ we observe might reflect conscious intent, not just biological necessity.

    Do you see bioelectric patterns as possibly embodying a broader consciousness, or do you view them as purely emergent phenomena with agency? Could their autonomy suggest an inherent consciousness that permeates biological processes, influencing both structure and function at a fundamental level?

    1. Mike Levin Avatar
      Mike Levin

      Our practical work doesn’t really require making any claims about consciousness yet, but if I had to guess, I would say that these patterns (like many other patterns) are enabling the ingression of a kind of mind (with some kind of consciousness) from the Platonic space of patterns and kinds of minds. I think intent is not as difficult to deal with as consciousness. If we define it as “working toward specific goals”, then absolutely and we already make use of this. If we define it as a 2nd-order “goals that I know I have, and could maybe change them”, then we don’t have any data to suggest this yet, but my gut feeling is that it’s possible.

  2. Tony Budding Avatar
    Tony Budding

    Once again, great stuff Mike. You ask which of the two perspectives is correct, but you already know the answer. Two salient features of modularity are that it’s nonlinear and nonexclusive. Experiential functionality (meaning the efforts of life) occurs both self-oriented and holistic-oriented simultaneously, sequentially and separately depending on the situation. For example, the skin on the hand can repair a cut while the hand is used to assess texture. And, recent sensory data can be interpreted and analyzed while new sensory data is being acquired.

    One could say it’s a two-way street, but really there are as many ways as there are modules. The concept of a linear sequencing of causes and effects says more about how the human brain structures knowledge than it explains experiential functionality (the efforts of life).

    And since one of the larger goals of this research is improving systemic dysfunction (such as illness and deformity), I’ll plant this seed (pun intended). The qualities of modular intelligence governing the determined efforts of life vary. In healthy living creatures, the modules are functional in themselves and in concert with the other modules they interact with. So where does dysfunction come from?

    This of course is a complicated question with a multipronged answer. One of the factors, though, is this variability of the qualities of modular intelligence. When determined efforts are functional, the interpretation of sensory data leads to the achievement of an agenda. When determined efforts are dysfunctional, the interpretation of sensory data leads away from the achievement of the agenda.

    Said differently, in the black box model of inputs and outputs, the same inputs lead to different outputs when the functionality inside the black box changes. Figuring out how and why the functionality varies is a tall order, but the first step is recognizing that modular intelligence has variable qualities and thus doesn’t perform identically in all situations.

  3. GG Avatar
    GG

    Binary may not be the best comparison method. Base 4 is possible. I was attempting architecture around base 3 (patent pending and assigned). I got fearful of the possibility of your research which can be applied on biological gates and stopped. A friend advised me not to play God 😉
    The last thing we want is a biologically evolving computer!
    Happy to share my perspective on 3D vs 2D, you will like it I am certain.
    Dig me out from your messages in Linkedin.

  4. John Avatar
    John

    Great post thank you!

  5. Bill Seltzer Avatar
    Bill Seltzer

    Profound essay!

  6. Teja Avatar

    Awesome, thank you, Mike. <3 <3 <3

  7. Benjamin L Avatar

    This post dense with interesting ideas. I have a few thoughts:

    1) Regarding bodies as the tractable interfaces of bioelectric patterns, perhaps things like brain-computer interfaces show this because the bioelectric patterns are apparently capable of using other interfaces when given the opportunity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain%E2%80%93computer_interface

    2) I’ve been thinking lately that it’s useful to conceive of neural signals between neurons as agents. The basic ideas are a) the neuron sending the signal can’t rely on the other neurons being signaled being in exactly the state the the sending-neuron expects, so the neural signal needs to have some problem-solving abilities, and b) that the neurons rely on the agential behavior of the neural signals to know how to respond appropriately to the signal; essentially, the neuron only knows it’s responded adequately when the neural signal stops agitating it.

    Evidence for the agency of neural signals would come from the observation that the neural signals don’t stop working until their job is done. Usually, the job is done quickly, so this would be hard to observe, but in economics, there are cases where the job is stalled but the neural signals, or price signals in this case, continue to work. For example, housing prices are high and have been for years, which is a signal saying to the economy to make housing less scarce by using less of it and/or building more of it. Since building housing is highly restricted, the problem doesn’t get solved, and the signal remains active, i.e., the price remains high. The price signal continues to agitate the system—we’re all stressed out about high housing costs—and will continue to do so until the system adjusts as intended (eg, building more housing).

    3) Regarding the two-way relationship where the bioelectric agent uses the body as its tape and the bodily agent uses the bioelectric patterns as its memory, this is probably analogous to the relationship between the nominal economy and the real economy. The nominal economy is the economy in terms of prices, whereas the real economy is the actual flow of goods and services. As we can infer from our study of the price system, the nominal economy is analogous to bioelectric patterns and is apparently agentic, having goals of accuracy and rationality. The nominal economy uses the real economy as an interface with which to express itself, and the real economy relies on the nominal economy as its memory, as prices are memories (and indeed help simplify and abstract our understanding of memory). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_and_nominal_value

    1. Mike Levin Avatar
      Mike Levin

      1) yes! absolutely; we’re exploring BCIs now for brain and non-brain tissue, making hybrots (like reviewed in https://academic.oup.com/biolinnean/article/139/4/457/6643577)
      2) yes! I think there’s a lot to do on this, in terms of agential data – communication paths and packets that have agendas.
      3) interesting! we’re looking into ways to visualize these hidden, virtual information structures, for examples ones that form in trained GRNs (like https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/24/1/285) while the hardware doesn’t change. I wonder if there are tools from economics to do this?

      1. Benjamin L Avatar

        Nothing that I know of—I’ll keep an eye out.

  8. reis Avatar
    reis

    we are back to Descartes now? memory-body dualism that communicate each other via neurons? please no.

    1. Mike Levin Avatar
      Mike Levin

      That’s my whole point – that there is no dualism between thoughts and thinkers, between memory and body, and different perspectives might see (and exploit) different mappings onto that spectrum form any given system.

  9. O Avatar
    O

    Yes, people are too used to linear cause-and-effect relationships. Our analytical tools lack an understanding of interdependence. Hope it’ll change soon.

  10. Lio Hong Avatar
    Lio Hong

    The premise of considering both the bioelectric signal and the body as mutually interacting agents is the most groundbreaking part, but I suspect that there already exists models and methods for this kind of situation. Especially with the application of changing the target state of the hypothetical bioelectric agents.

    Some word associations from me: My first impression is kind of like a generative adversarial network. Or perhaps predator-prey dynamics in a sense. Even Turing-style reaction-diffusion systems, or the auto-catalysis often quoted for self-replicating chemistries.

  11. Rob Scott Avatar

    Love this, Mike. Thank you. 🙏

  12. Lio Hong Avatar
    Lio Hong

    The premise of considering both the bioelectric signal and the body as mutually interacting agents is the most groundbreaking part, but I suspect that there already exists models and methods for this kind of situation. Especially with the application of changing the target state of the hypothetical bioelectric agents.

    Some word associations from me: My first impression is kind of like a generative adversarial network. Or perhaps predator-prey dynamics in a sense. Even Turing-style reaction-diffusion systems, or the auto-catalysis often quoted for self-replicating chemistries.

  13. Wayne Enos Avatar
    Wayne Enos

    Great stuff and thanks for giving us lots of thinking to do on the thinkers and the thought’s perspective!

  14. Jaan Laaspere Avatar
    Jaan Laaspere

    Thank you for a profound and thought provoking post.

    The perspective of cellular bioelectricity as a precursor of complex neural phenomenon associated with thought and cognition reminded me of a similar idea described in this article rstb.2019 (https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rstb.2019.0764) [Reafference and the origin of the self in early nervous system evolution 2021].

    The authors posit that early simple reafferent sensing (the processing of sense input caused by the agent’s own motion or activity) developed into a complex emergent version that is human self-consciousness.

    Both of these threads explore the similarity of development over the course of an individual’s growth (morphogenesis) and the evolution of the current form of that agent over a long view of time, tracing back hundreds of millions of years.

    Your second idea successfully stretches the category bounds. Can a body or, more broadly, a manifest external form, be viewed as a tool or scratch pad for a more abstract and differently agential entity?

    It’s all about relative stability across timescales and the unique characteristics of each media. 4D spacetime, with its unique positions and sequenced actions, is uniquely qualified as an information storage and manipulation media.

    The analogy of a scratch pad is particularly helpful. When trying to develop and grasp a complex abstract idea, a useful tool is to write or draw to make the abstract tangible. A shared version of this method is common where whiteboard scribblings in a group align people’s thinking, even if erased at the end of the meeting.

    I really enjoy your proposed thought exercise to contemplate mutual interaction between different levels of abstraction and timescales to ponder how “two creatures are simultaneously using each other as a lower agency scratch pads”.

    To quote Lee Cronin; “Life is the universe developing a memory.” We could say life is the tool the universe uses to lay down memory. Expanding on this – life can be seen as a mechanism for creating the most general type of memory => the models and patterns that are the evolving creation of the universe across countless time and distance scales.

    Thank you again for stretching our ideas of agency and memory.

    Jaan Laaspere
    Norwich, VT

  15. David kolb Avatar
    David kolb

    It is fascinating to consider that bioelectric patterning is a method of information storage and distribution and even memory. The question of “where is the pattern encoded” or what is the mechanism that the information is stored in bioelectricity could possibly be answered with the fractal properties of bioelectric waves. Fractals are natures way of information storage and distribution through many scales from cosmological to cellular. Bioelectric waves exhibit fractal properties, showing complex patterns that repeat across different scales.
    Fractal patterns in EEG signals demonstrate how bioelectric activity can encode complex information. The brains fractal organization allows for efficient processing and storage of information. Neural networks utilize fractal-like organization to optimize connectivity and information processing.

    The connection between fractals and bioelectric information storage is supported by:
    – Bioelectric signals showing scale-free behavior and self-similarity across different scales.
    – The ability of fractal patterns to encode complex information in biological systems.
    – The demonstration that fractal dimensions of bioelectric signals correlate with information processing complexity.
    This suggests that fractal properties could be the underlying mechanism for how bioelectric networks store and distribute information in the ways that you, in your work, have observed.

    1. Mike Levin Avatar
      Mike Levin

      I agree that there are deep connections here that remain to be explored! Check out these fractals: https://thoughtforms.life/halleys-method-fractal-art/

  16. abu omit Avatar
    abu omit

    Professor Levin,

    These are probably lousy questions 🙂 but I might as well ask,
    As of now,
    1. What is your intuition about bioelectricity’s role in aging?

    On one hand, asexual planarian flatworm seems to have solved this….
    on the otherhand, if ion channel & gap junctions are the interface, could cells(or cell membrane where channels and junctions are embedded) be damaged to a point where top-down bioelectric pattern instruction are not as effective? Like a control panel with malfunctioning knobs. It’s like a tower made of dogs but the dogs are having diarrhea or something.

    While the paper linked here in the “post” on aging shows keratinocytes senescent cells not responding to bioelectric patterns as much as the younger cells, in many of your interviews you have this example of notch mutation thought of as a hardware problem being solved in the software/bioelectric layer by HCN2 channel opener.
    So, I am curious if you have any hunches on if aging can be solved by bioelectric interface alone.

    2. In one of your recent interviews you talked about how half a dozen labs are working on bioelectricity….as an outsider (both U.S. and healtcare industry) this is kind of shocking given the potential bioelectricity has. Do you think …enough people are working on this no in 2024 given the potential?

    if not, is it because of a lack of funding? or there is a worldview scarcity because traditional DNA-as-software story preventing people to explore this?

    3. For someone who wants to know more about how to collect bioelectric data in-vivo, do you have any suggestion for papers, lectures or other resources to look into? It feels like there may be “low hanging fruits’ if we could just explore more patterns of the electrome.

    1. Mike Levin Avatar
      Mike Levin

      1) yeah we’re writing something on this now. Stay tuned. I do think that bioelectrics can be a fundamental part of the aging problem (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568163724001284?via%3Dihub) although it’s not impossible that there are other components that need to be addressed too. Here’s an explanation of what I think is happening in planaria https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/25/1/131.

      2) no, of course I’d like more people working on it. It’s limited by the funding and lack of expertise in the area because all the education materials have been totally focused on the hardware of life (genetics, biochemistry) for decades. All of us in the field are trying to speed up the change.

      3) yeah check out the protocols at https://drmichaellevin.org/publications/protocols.html – but there are no low hanging fruits here. We’re working on this and it’s hard. We’ll crack it, but it’s not easy.

      1. abu omit Avatar
        abu omit

        I’ll look into these. Thanks!

  17. Rangesh Ranganahan Avatar
    Rangesh Ranganahan

    Dear sir,

    If there is voltage and current in the organisms, where on earth is the battery?

    1. Mike Levin Avatar
      Mike Levin

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resting_potential it’s in every cell, across the outer membrane, and also in membranes of organelles within the cell. It’s produced by the actions of ion pump and channel proteins.

  18. Adrian Lee Oliver Avatar
    Adrian Lee Oliver

    While you’re entertaining flips in perspective, I would like to suggest one of my own. I haven’t had the opportunity to read all of your public works, so I apologize if I’m “outing” you on this, but I’m imagining that the moment you discovered non-neurological bio-electric networks and the reality that it is possible to interface with them using technological constructs, it didn’t take you two minutes to understand that the possibility exists for other types of interfaces to achieve the same type of communication with those networks. Our minds seem to work in similar ways; and that’s about how long it took this realization to dawn on me.

    Taking into consideration the candidate(s) currently knowable for achieving these alternative forms of interface with these networks, you’ll know as well as I do that they’ve been called by different names and confused for similar phenomena throughout history. I’m suggesting that you’re in the same situation with your identification of “information retention” in metamorphosis/splitting planarians being identical to or analogous with “memory”.

    The question I would suggest is worth consideration would be “if we’re not looking at memory as the mechanism of information retention in these scenarios, then what are we looking at?”

    I’ve spent four months “in the field” exploring the possibility of utilizing alternative interfaces to achieve communication with bio-electric networks. Progress has proven slow and resistant to replication. If you’re working on anything similar, it would be extremely helpful if I could convince you to share. Happy Holidays, Michael.

    1. Mike Levin Avatar
      Mike Levin

      I think I know what you mean, but I’m not currently working on that.

      1. Adrian Lee Oliver Avatar
        Adrian Lee Oliver

        Yeah, I guess that would have made this too easy on me :). Speaking of making things too easy, I believe that there is a “bottom” to intelligence in our reality. It is a huge place where my work diverges from yours. This suggestion I have made for you to entertain the possibility that you’re not dealing with memory in the information retention you’re witnessing — at least in my work — is the final stair before you reach that bottom floor. Nothing would make me happier than if you were to take that step and arrive in the same place I am. If I’m correct, understanding what this mechanism truly is, establishes the foundations of intelligence in our reality. Or at the very least begins the process of establishing that foundation. I’m always willing to share, but I imagine you are the type who prefers to do their own work.

        Best to you and yours.

        1. Mike Levin Avatar
          Mike Levin

          A good way to share things like this is to publish a preprint – like at https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv for example. It’s free and open to everyone to read. If you have something that you think advances the state of knowledge, you can put it there and people can think about it.

          1. Adrian Lee Oliver Avatar
            Adrian Lee Oliver

            You’re right, of course. Thank you. I want take this opportunity to say how discovering your work has given me so much hope for the future. And if you haven’t done so already, I think people like me who love what you’re doing would really love to see a talk between you and Sarah Imani Walker. It was nice chatting with you.

            1. Mike Levin Avatar
              Mike Levin

              Thanks! I know Sarah well, we talk and collaborate but we haven’t done a video together as far as I recall.

              1. Adrian Lee Oliver Avatar
                Adrian Lee Oliver

                You’ve surrounded yourself with the most amazing collective of thinkers and collaborators. But I’m particularly interested in hearing you talk with Sarah. Something to look forward to in the new year!

                1. Adrian Lee Oliver Avatar
                  Adrian Lee Oliver

                  I feel like I should be more specific. Sarah is brilliant. Almost too brilliant for her own good. In all of her public talks her interlocutors are so terribly outmatched that nobody I’ve seen has been in an intellectual position to challenge her or force her to go off script, and so she largely just repeats the same script. Your specific area of knowledge (technically you’re both searching for the same answers using different tools) gives you a rare opportunity to show the world what her mind is really made of. There is also something promising to me in the possibility of a synthesis between both of your approaches to interrogating “first causes” of life and intelligence. Frankly, knowing now that the two of you frequently talk and collaborate I would’ve almost expected the code to have been cracked by now. For someone who cares about the things I care about, this is the conversation of the century. As long as you both take the gloves off. I’m bothering you again about this because I wanted to say that if you are ever about to make this conversation happen, I would LOVE the opportunity to submit a few questions for your exchange. If the day comes when everything lines up for this talk and you remember me, I promise not to disappoint. Merry Christmas!

  19. Ian Todd Avatar
    Ian Todd

    I’ve been meaning to ask—have you spent much time with the ephaptic field folks?
    For example: “Consciousness Might Hide in Our Brain’s Electric Fields”
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/consciousness-might-hide-in-our-brains-electric-fields/

    The idea is that the electric fields generated by brain activity could themselves shape neural dynamics. Undergrad neuro textbooks usually say, “these fields are too weak to affect action potentials.” But this overlooks a crucial detail: the brain operates near criticality—a phase transition regime where tiny perturbations can cascade into widespread effects.
    See: “Theoretical foundations of studying criticality in the brain”
    https://direct.mit.edu/netn/article/6/4/1148/112392/Theoretical-foundations-of-studying-criticality-in

    So if the cortex is balanced at the edge of a phase change, it becomes an amplifier of weak fields. And I see this as a case of weak coupling between oscillators.
    Here’s a nice visual:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3Q7JYBkOHU

    Where does the pattern live? Not in the parts, but in the energy flows between them. The wave isn’t in a pendulum—it lives between them.

    So if an informational object lives in the coupling between oscillators, the cool thing is dimensionality. It’s a genuinely high-dimensional system. Just like large language models embed tokens in high-dimensional latent space—meaning arises from relations, not from the symbols themselves. (e.g., king – man + woman = queen)

    If consciousness lives in electric field dynamics, then we live in a high-dimensional analog latent space.
    Not in our neurons, but in the relational phase space around them.

    And I figure this is what the Cambrian explosion was.
    Increased oxygenation allowed faster oscillation via improved metabolism.
    More frequency → more bandwidth → more coherent informational structure.

    Animals began to live in information space.
    Oxygen opened new dimensions.

  20. Ty Avatar
    Ty

    Muscle memory is interesting too. You’ve solidified or stored a movement pattern into your body. An example is when a golfer can hit a golf ball blindfolded.

  21. Ty Avatar
    Ty

    It seems like cognition or consciousness is the excess ability to interact, process and store information or a collective group of molecules. So cognition in excess of that needed for survival is an artifact of the collective molecules achieving their goals superbly.

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